Home » News articles » 06 Apr 2010 » An informal interview with retiring Bishop Carolyn Tanner Irish

An informal interview with retiring Bishop Carolyn Tanner Irish

Submitted by craig wirth on Tue, 04/06/2010 - 3:17pm
CW: When we look back to 1996, we see a very different time in the national church (now The Episcopal Church or TEC) the Diocese of Utah, and in your own life. For those who are either new to the diocese or to the Episcopal Church—what was it like?
 
CTI: What strikes me first about these differences is the impact societal and cultural changes have had on the church: technology, the entertainment industry, war, the recession and the fractiousness in politics. As for me, I really didn’t know the Episcopal Church in Utah—i.e., that it had always been progressive on social issues, and no one in Washington where I was serving would have guessed that either.
 
CW: You didn’t seek out your position, did you? It just sort of happened—miracles happened didn’t they?
 
CTI: I don’t know about miracles, but at the time I did not see the episcopacy anywhere on my horizon. I was engaged in a different kind of ministry—that of spiritual formation, so I wasn’t thinking about institutional leadership. I had, however, served churches in urban, suburban and rural places, and also on the bishop’s staff in Michigan. For some of those who nominated me in the Utah bishop’s search, I may have been the only clergy person they knew who was from Utah. And just because Utah was my first home, I felt I should pay attention to this process and election. As I began to learn more, I became more and more impressed with this diocese.
 
CW: Go back to the election day in Salt Lake City. After several ballots, it became clear that one name was gaining support. What were your thoughts?
 
CTI: At the time I was in Salt Lake for a Tanner board meeting. That Saturday morning I was sitting at home with my mother and some friends. There certainly was an undercurrent of excitement, but I don’t know what I thought would happen, and I didn’t trust any news I did hear. But when Bishop Bates called me and a TV truck came rolling in I was stunned. It seemed quite unbelievable to me, and yet was one of the most affirming moments in my whole life. That evening my Matheson cousins arrived to celebrate, and the next morning my sister and I headed up to Brigham City, where the Rev. Lee Shaw was presiding. He was my contact person on the nominating committee, so I wanted to be with him at St. Michael’s. Still, the whole thing took a long time to sink in.
 
CW: Again, this was not something you sought. What are some of the things “they” never told you about before you became Bishop Coadjutor Elect?
 
CTI: Well, there were some things not disclosed to me very clearly, but of course I had much to learn apart from that. I guess one learns to be a bishop a bit like one learns to be a mother; it is hard to know what it is like ahead of time. At the same time there is a lot of professionalism in the work of a bishop. The College for Bishops began the year I was elected, and it has since become very helpful to new bishops.
 
CW: Does anything particular stick out in your mind from that first year?
 
CTI:  Yes, I recall a very friendly meeting with the first Presidency of the LDS Church, and this was something of a relief to me because I didn’t know what to expect. Lately I have become aware that I can measure my time here by the growth of our children. Yesterday I confirmed a young man who was four or five when I first met him, and recently I saw a young girl running around whom I had blessed before she was born. That is quite a dramatic way to measure time from the beginning to now!
 
CW: What challenges did you see that first year that you had not expected?
 
CTI: Well, I didn’t expect to be sued and have to deal with lawyers! I really had no clear sense of the financial wealth of the diocese or how it had been used. This was troubling to me when I realized that the diocese had moved very suddenly from being one of the poorest in the country to extreme wealth, and the people were not prepared for such a sudden transition. I remember hoping and praying that money would not ruin the church here; no doubt it can be a blessing and do good things, but its power can also distract us from the gospel and from our mission, or make us selfish and entitled.
 
Initially, I was glad to learn that my predecessor had put the money from the sale of St. Mark’s Hospital into a perpetual trust, so no one could just start spending it; it was there to bless generations to come.   I hope that it will, though it puts a clear damper on our own stewardship and I don’t think we do enough for others with its resources.
 
CW: What have been some of our biggest social challenges in your time here, and what are the issues we must face now?
 
Bishop welcomes Archbishop Carlos Mexico

Bishop welcomes Archbishop Carlos Mexico CTI: Along the way in my time here we have worked openly and with others (though unsuccessfully) to ban guns in schools and churches, against inhumane immigrations laws, and English only regulations. Canon David Bailey led us in rigorous anti-racism training, and prepared others to continue that work. In the larger communion we have formed companion relationships with a diocese in Myanmar and one in Mexico. We have contributed significant funds to other churches and dioceses in our Project Jubilee work. And several of our churches are providing food for the poor, and those suffering this recession the most.

 
From my point of view, environmental concerns are the most critical for us to engage now. I was working in this area before I became bishop here, and it seemed that the church was not ready to deal with these issues—either theologically or actively. But I believe it is now, and I am so pleased that many in our community are now willing to go forward with this work—through Interfaith Power and Light, for example. Utah is such a beautiful and diverse landscape, but Utah is such a hard place to get things to active engagement—cleaning up air and water, finding new energy resources, public transport, etc.
 
CW: We have seen significant controversy in the Episcopal Church during your time as bishop here. But the matters of women in the episcopate and GLBT persons in ordained leadership positions have not divided our diocese. How do you account for that?
 
CTI: Again, I can only say that we have a history of progressive leadership on social issues. Daniel Sylvester Tuttle was an unusual and outstanding missionary bishop who brought the Episcopal Church here. And since his time I think we have been more willing to look at new possibilities than most.   In any case we seem to me to be a more pragmatic church. Perhaps it is true to say we want to focus on gospel values that really matter.
 
CW: Was it a proud moment for you when you knew that most bishops would vote to confirm Gene Robinson as the bishop of New Hampshire, and would elect and support Katharine Jefferts Schori as the Presiding Bishop of TEC?
 
Bishop Irish and Presiding Bishop Jefferts Schori at St. Marks Cathedral

CTI: I don’t know how much of that was pride on my part, but both occasions were deeply moving and the outcomes did surprise and delight me. I pray for them, as it is very difficult to lead when you know others would as soon see you dead. I hardly think about the issue of women anymore. I have now served with three different Presiding Bishops, and I have always felt that I should support them in their work. No leader can be a good leader without support. 

 
CW: Utah has a significant role in The Episcopal Church, and yet we are small. There are parishes in TEC that have more members than our diocese does. How do you see our role in the wider church structure?
 
CTI: I don’t think significance and influence are dependent on size only.  Every diocese has an equal number of deputies to General Convention, and at least one bishop to represent them. Most bishops participate in some other ways, as do many lay people. Our Steve Hutchinson was the principle author of the new Title IV disciplinary canon, and was elected to the Executive Council at the last convention. Both roles represent major contributions to the larger church, as does Canon David Bailey’s nomination to become the bishop of the Area Mission in Navajoland. I hope, too, that I have made some difference just in being the first bishop who is a woman in the west, and now the senior bishop in Province Eight.
 
CW: Is there a Biblical verse or prayer that has carried you through these years, and an inspirational moment that you will never forget?
 
CTI: The inspirational moment I recall most clearly was when Katherine was elected as our Presiding Bishop. I nominated her but truthfully I didn’t think she had much of a chance. As those ballots came in, and the last one arrived, I wept and the whole House wept, not just the women. It is a time I will always remember.
 
The Biblical verse I carry with me is in St. John’s gospel, “Abide in me.” It is on my Bishop’s ring, and I always think it is the prayer of Jesus and well as my prayer.
 
CW: Being a bishop, did you rely on scripture more than on canon law?
 
CTI: Absolutely. Yet both have their place, and the Spirit can work through both. I will miss preaching on a regular basis, because that is the way the gospel touches my life every week—it is one of the ways I stay grounded. We can all get swept off into issues, but the gospel is where we come alive.
 
I hope we elect a grounded rather than an issues bishop here. From a generous spirit and a deep soul one can work with other people. After all, this is not a very powerful position any more, so it is critical to connect with people in other ways.
 
CW: Do you think that governing bodies in the modern church sometimes forget that we are a church?
 
CTI: That does happen, at many levels. But I have found that changing our diocesan canons to include a Diocesan Council, as well as a Standing Committee and Bishop—a triad of governance—has made a big difference in how we work together. And beginning each Council meeting with a devotional period of some kind does remind us who and whose we are.
 
CW: Earlier in our conversation you mentioned what a surprise it was to discover how much money the diocese had in its perpetual trust. Now I believe that most members of our Diocese are aware of our blessings. You have used the word ‘transparency.’ How important is that?
 
CTI: Well first I must repeat that money is not always a blessing, and I believe that the Diocesan abundance has kept us from maturing in many ways. However, in the long run it is never good to be secretive about financial matters, and so the disclosure of our assets was critical in my eyes. That is what transparency means. I felt as well that no one person should have control of the income from that much money, so we dissolved the Corporation of the Bishop. We have since shared this responsibility of forming our budgets and of funding Project Jubilee.
 
CW: You often use the world ‘hospitality’ when discussing Project Jubilee. There are many biblical stories of people being hospitable, but how does it relate to Project Jubilee?
 
CTI: It relates primarily because of its biblical (and monastic) significance, and because we think of God as having a hospitable heart, drawing us to God’s self. To the extent that we extend hospitality to others, we love our neighbors as ourselves.   When our buildings are visible, safe, accessible, attractive and shaped for mission, it makes a great statement of welcome to all.
 
CW: You have spent some time involved in the wider community of Utah—its universities and other organizations. What led you to do this?
 
CTI: The Profile of the Diocese prepared for the election that brought me here specifically asked for their next bishop to be engaged in public life—not politics-public-life—but agencies beyond the church. I have enjoyed doing this, especially meeting other people and engaging in educational and other causes. I think it has kept me and maybe others from becoming too parochial.
 
Bishop shows Congressman Matheson the environmentally efficient ECCU

Bishop shows Congressman Matheson the environmentally efficient ECCUCW: You also led the Diocese from an office building, and now in a very open building in the heart of downtown. It certainly tells the community who and where we are—which was not at all clear before. Now that we have been in the Episcopal Church Center of Utah, right next to our Cathedral, for two years, and we have seen people here at all hours, what are your thoughts?

 
CTI: It is, as I had hoped, graciously hospitable. I love coming to work here, as does our whole staff. All the spaces have natural light, good colors and attractive art work. We have many, many guests who come—to our bookstore, our retreat center, our conference rooms. These are community not-for-profit groups, other churches, and committees from the wider church. All speak highly of how well they are treated here. I am so thankful that we built it when we did, because we couldn’t do it now.
 
CW: And outside of the USA, you have become quite familiar with other countries. Very few people go to Myanmar, or see the parts of Mexico that are not just tourist attractions. How were those trips important to you as a bishop, and to us as members of this diocese?
 
CTI: Travel to Myanmar is difficult, much more so than to Mexico. But I was clear that we needed to reach out to the world, and to places and churches that had so much less than we did. I traveled with other Province Eight bishops to Taiwan and several of us made the Myanmar trip, ‘bringing our diocese with us.’ On this journey, we realized that participation in their churches was not really about ‘having’ anything. They were so welcoming and kind to us.
 
We have many immigrants from Myanmar in Utah now, and I would love to see us offer help to them.
 
Now, as a diocese we have companion relationships in Myanmar and Mexico, and our offerings on Pentecost are directed to go to them. We are also planning for Bishop David and his wife Mary, as well as Presiding Bishop Carlos to join us for the consecration of the next bishop here.
 
CW: In the past, some of our congregations have had to rely on locally trained clergy—with not much in the way of training. How has that changed recently?
 
CTI: Another area of special growth is in our education and spiritual formation programs. The Utah Ministry Formation Program (UMFP) led by Canon Mary June Nestler is an outstanding program for those hoping to be ordained as deacons or priests, and laity as well, in this and other dioceses. She is an outstanding teacher and organizer, and I am thrilled to see this program taking hold. It draws on the outstanding gifts of our people and makes full use of our facilities as well.
 
CW: Talking of clergy, what do you have to say about Utah clergy?
 
CTI: We have a terrific group, and in fact it is almost a total turnover in heads of congregations since I came here. (The same extent of turnover has happened on our diocesan staff too.) There are no clergy I don’t get on with. Both sorrow and humor draw us together, as do the times when we share the great celebrations of ordination and the investiture of new leaders.
 
I see some of our clergy really reaching out to form mission communities north and south of us, and among our Latino and Sudanese people here. With leadership from Canon Pablo Ramos, the Rev. Isabel Gonzalaz and the Rev. Jim Tendick we now have three vital Latino missions. St. David’s in Page, Arizona, is one of our most amazing communities—and not one many would have bet on! Again it was the leadership of the Rev. Steve Keplinger and his wife Jean that made its success possible.
 
CW:   For those who don’t know you well, or those who only see you vested and in procession, they may not realize that you have quite a sense of humor. It does come out in some of your sermons and meetings, but it would be remiss of me not to ask that after these fourteen years, do any humorous moments just stick out?
 
CTI: Yes, one that was both the worst and the funniest. I went to my very first visitation at Ascension and St. Matthews in Price. About two minutes before I arrived I realized that I had left my suitcase home! I had my vestments in the car, and was wearing jeans for the drive, but the suitcase with everything else was still on my bed at home, and I was planning to stay two or three days!   I hate telling the end of this story—because I could have gone to K Mart and bought a few things, but instead I called my mother’s gardener and got him to bring the suitcase to me. Four hours of driving just for my vanity!
 
CW: What about poignant moments? Any that stick out?
 
CTI: This is surely too big an answer, but I would say births and deaths were most tender to me. I have just visited my fifth grandchild, and I looked at that tiny but whole creature and thought, “Where did you come from?” Since being here I have also experienced the deaths of several of our senior people. There is something about both these experiences that reminds me of how precious life is, and I hope I will be conscious of this all my remaining days.
 
CW: You have spoken about some of your accomplishments here; do you have any disappointments as well?
 
CTI: Craig, the accomplishments mentioned in our conversation are really those of all our people, our congregations, governing bodies, the Commission on Ministry, Diocesan staff and so on. I have been honored and recognized in a number of ways outside of the diocese, but mostly because I represent our people there too.
 
Disappointments don’t come readily to mind because I accept the fact that I am not perfect. I feel satisfaction in doing the best I can.
 
CW: You have kept out of the process to pick the 11th bishop of Utah. You have watched others take over the leadership of this work. But, surely you know more about the job than anyone else around here. Generally, what qualities do you hope for in your successor?
 
CTI: One of my professors used to say it takes “the hide of an elephant and the grace of a gazelle.”  I have personal and strong feelings about our legacy in this diocese, but what I said earlier about a bishop I would say about a leader in any diocese, parish or mission. One must be grounded spiritually and in one’s faith.   People do get beaten up, or burned out, or bored in this kind of work. It isn’t that one can avoid that altogether, but by the grace of God one can escape being broken by it.  
 
CW: In a few months we are going to have the 11th bishop elected in a special convention at the Cathedral Church of St. Mark. What do you think your first words to that bishop will be in your first conversation with him or her?
 
CTI: As you noted I have tried to stay out of this, but at the same time I rather hope others involved in it will ask me to make that call.
 
CW: Why?
 
CTI: Because it is such a precious ‘handing over,” and this person will be so blessed to come here. He or she will feel affirmed as I did, so I will think carefully about what I say.
 
CW: You are entering a transition in life, that of retirement. What have you learned about that during this last year?
 
CTI: I can speak more about my hopes than my learning’s. I long to move more slowly and be more rested. Also, Fred and I will enjoy being more connected with our children and grandchildren, having fun, and traveling a bit. Beyond that I don’t have plans.
 
I am, however, grateful that I will keep a residence here to continue my work with the Tanner Company. I greatly value their work and the people.
 
CW: Is there anything you will not miss about being an active bishop?
 
CTI: All the bishops I know answer that question the same way; they say they will not miss meetings. But there is also the wider “have to” part of this job (or of any job actually). I will be glad to have the freedom to make new choices.
 
CW: No second thoughts about retirement?
 
Bishop celebrates Holy Eucharist

Bishop celebrates Holy EucharistCTI: No, I am very clear that the time is right for me and for the diocese. I am so enjoying my last round of visitations. It is a pleasure to share some memories and to thank people, and it is a pleasure to be thanked too. I am content with what we have accomplished together.